why vega still using bad bad plastic for OilBlend ?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Charles Chang on December 21, 2009 at 9:39pm

Hi Zalman,

Thanks for your candid feedback. Our decision to use plastic instead of glass for our oil packaging was not taken lightly. As much as we would have like to have used glass, we believe it would not have been the most environmentally friendly option. Let’s face it, we are a global community now and packaging and transportation of products is inevitable. Packaging has a job to do and if a more eco-friendly solution fails to do the job then it may actually be more costly to the environment in the long run because the product may have to be returned/remade/reshipped etc. For example, we were really excited about the plant cellulose based packaging materials originally, but after extensive testing, we found they couldn’t do the job - yet. And, like the biodiesel fiasco, they may actually be less eco-friendly than fully recyclable plastic options (we have a fundamental problem with food being used for fuel/packaging).

In the case of our oil bottles, our PET plastic option is much more environmentally friendly than glass. If we used glass, we would have had to purchase them from afar, have them shipped (empty of course), sterilize them prior to use, use more care and packaging to ensure breakage is minimized, suffer the breakage that inevitably occurs anyways, deal with the consequences of such, etc. Further, the cost of recycling glass is much higher than PET plastic. So, instead, we sourced a Canadian supplier (very close to the source of the majority of our oils ) who blew their own bottles from PET resin in house, eliminating shipping empty bottles altogether, eliminated packaging sterilization, eliminated breakage, significantly reduced source materials, allowed for full curbside recycling, and cost much less to make and ship. We think plastic in general gets a bad rap because it is the most visible, and we too hate seeing the plastic shopping bags and garbage littered around. However, it is too complex an argument to just say all plastic is bad. There are many factors that come into play.

So to recap, specifically why did we choose plastic and not glass packaging? The key enemies of freshness and shelf stability are heat, light and oxygen. When stored properly at ambient temperatures, PET plastic (#1) is just as inert as glass. When it comes to light, PET is actually superior to glass as it is black and completely opaque, not amber like glass, which still allows light to penetrate (this is why companies using glass often add a paperboard box, to keep light out). For oxygen, it is not an issue because we nitrogen flush prior to sealing to eliminate any oxygen in the bottle prior to shipping. Plus PET will not break during shipping, requires less packaging, is fully recyclable and is much less expensive. That means more $ can go into ingredients, rather than excessive packaging.

Hope this helps!

Charles

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Permalink Reply by Mark on December 21, 2009 at 9:57pm

This post caught my eye and honestly the reply seemed just like a really long run around to avoid saying "Vega wants fuller pockets, so we use plastic". Nutiva makes their 16oz hemp oil in a nice glass bottle so it can be done, no more excuses.

Charles Chang said:

Hi Zalman,

Thanks for your candid feedback. Our decision to use plastic instead of glass for our oil packaging was not taken lightly. As much as we would have like to have used glass, we believe it would not have been the most environmentally friendly option. Let’s face it, we are a global community now and packaging and transportation of products is inevitable. Packaging has a job to do and if a more eco-friendly solution fails to do the job then it may actually be more costly to the environment in the long run because the product may have to be returned/remade/reshipped etc. For example, we were really excited about the plant cellulose based packaging materials originally, but after extensive testing, we found they couldn’t do the job - yet. And, like the biodiesel fiasco, they may actually be less eco-friendly than fully recyclable plastic options (we have a fundamental problem with food being used for fuel/packaging).

In the case of our oil bottles, our PET plastic option is much more environmentally friendly than glass. If we used glass, we would have had to purchase them from afar, have them shipped (empty of course), sterilize them prior to use, use more care and packaging to ensure breakage is minimized, suffer the breakage that inevitably occurs anyways, deal with the consequences of such, etc. Further, the cost of recycling glass is much higher than PET plastic. So, instead, we sourced a Canadian supplier (very close to the source of the majority of our oils ) who blew their own bottles from PET resin in house, eliminating shipping empty bottles altogether, eliminated packaging sterilization, eliminated breakage, significantly reduced source materials, allowed for full curbside recycling, and cost much less to make and ship. We think plastic in general gets a bad rap because it is the most visible, and we too hate seeing the plastic shopping bags and garbage littered around. However, it is too complex an argument to just say all plastic is bad. There are many factors that come into play.

So to recap, specifically why did we choose plastic and not glass packaging? The key enemies of freshness and shelf stability are heat, light and oxygen. When stored properly at ambient temperatures, PET plastic (#1) is just as inert as glass. When it comes to light, PET is actually superior to glass as it is black and completely opaque, not amber like glass, which still allows light to penetrate (this is why companies using glass often add a paperboard box, to keep light out). For oxygen, it is not an issue because we nitrogen flush prior to sealing to eliminate any oxygen in the bottle prior to shipping. Plus PET will not break during shipping, requires less packaging, is fully recyclable and is much less expensive. That means more $ can go into ingredients, rather than excessive packaging.

Hope this helps!

Charles

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Permalink Reply by Zalman on December 22, 2009 at 3:46am

;-)Thank you Mark..short and to the Point!
The story Charles posted you summarized in three true words. Thank you.

Yes, it's a long sweet excuse not to use glass.
To claim that Plastic is more "eco friendly" than glass...??!! since when ?
Plastic can be recycled, true. But what percentage of plastic is really being recycled? not even half and it will never be higher. So, at least 50% of all plastic goes with garbage into the ground. But, nevertheless, it's probably good for future generations of archeologists, it will help them to learn about human's dark ages, and how this ugly plastic contaminated people health in 20-21st century.
Glass is a true eco friendly. Even if glass is left on the ground, in small pieces, in a couple of years this glass disintegrates.
Glass is made from most human friendly material, the most cleanest material.
I personally don't buy anything in plastic, except oil blend, which I am going to stop using because of plastic.
There are other brands like Flora, they use a nice dark bottle.
Thousands of companies use glass and nobody has a problem, nothing breaks if used proper materials. Even if the cost of packaging is transfered to the price of oil blend, people wouldn't mind. We'll have peace of mind knowing Vega does the best for its best products and it's the best for us.
Oil + plastic can mean one thing: it's not safe. Period.
Why companies like Natur and many others use Glass jars for their Peanut butter ? They know that plastic is bad for oil and for their products.
I can google and find in a minute what happens to oil when it's stored in plastic.

There is now a total consensus not to use plastic for food. It's everywhere, everybody know that.
who said "PET" is "safe" ? maybe it's safe for anything, But food.

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Permalink Reply by John Stewart on December 22, 2009 at 11:37am

Hello fellow discussion members.

I am a destination Photographer, in my history I have also owned a Distribution Company which I distributed postcards that I also published. On top of this I have owned a Internet Cafe, and a Book Store. I am not taking sides here however Charles has not produced excuses he has produced sound decisions for the reasons Vega uses a select Plastic.

Now most of us using Vega are green aware so in good nature we would recycle so this is not a strong base for an argument. What is also being missed is the fact of emissions impact on the transportation of glass and added pulp products for safe delivery... which is more emissions produced during delivery of a packaging that requires more space in transport. Then there is is added emissions for possible broken containers that need to be replaced for the retailer.

Everything in our current date existence has an environmental impact as the Earth is beyond capacity as we are at a 7 billion human population mark. We also have to acknowledge that in the last 50 years we as a race have created 50,000+ Chemicals however nature itself creates Chemicals. Vega pursuing a position as company that offers health benefits will take great care to have a non tarnished presentation so it is in their best interest that each and every product has the same level non global impact as the next. Which I believe Charles has stated here.

Regardless until we all give up our modern loved lifestyles and become organic farmers working our own backyards none of us are in a position to cast stones at a company that is working to lead the health and nutrition industry.

All The Best,

j

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Permalink Reply by Zalman on December 22, 2009 at 12:46pm

it was pointless to mention your enterprises history, but anyway...
I don't want to keep arguing about plastic, I'll just say this..Plastic is 101% artificial chemical substance, so if you think logically, there is nothing safe in plastic for food. For all other things, it's not entirely safe either, because plastics emit all kinds of fumes and other garbage under certain circumstances, like sunshine, water...
Another thing, by keep using plastic we support the worst environmental criminals on Planet Earth - Chemical Industries and Pharmaceutical Mafias(aka BigPharma). They both work side by side.
As a matter of fact, very often they both are one and the same corporation of criminals. One branch produces so called "medications" and the other branch makes plastic coffins and other plastic utilities.

So, by supporting them, companies that use plastic in their packaging, contribute to the overall health state of north america. BigPharma still controls 80% of people's minds, to keep trusting them and keep buying "medications". This supports their other chemical branch.

They for sure knew very well how to convince companies to keep using their plastic bottles and other plastic packaging. The argument by Charles is not serious at all.

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Permalink Reply by John Stewart on December 22, 2009 at 2:32pm

Hello Zalman,
The reason I brought up the history of my business is to provide a platform that I understand the global impact of distribution. I agree that the use of plastics have problems with use over a period of time especially when they are exposed to heat that promotes the release of various chemicals at high temperatures... I also know of the islands of plastic that are floating in the pacific.

We use oil and from the bi product of this use brings to us many of the plastics we use today.

I deal with the use of plastics every day, I simply would have to shut down my business not use it.

Lets look at what Apple is achieving with their IMac compared to other electronic devices devices. What they have achieved with removing toxic chemicals of their glass display is unmatched. So we all should dump the use of our current computers and move to Apple. http://www.apple.com/imac/the-new-imac/

I am just looking at what Charles has said and it is very important that we all look at the bottom line of what is causing largest impact for the actual use of the selected plastic. Many consumer goods have some sort of plastic involved and when oil which will happen within our lifespan easily.

If we have to use plastic it is important not to let it be exposed to dishwasher temps for this is when most chemicals are released. There is an excellent documentary by National geographic about plastics narrated by Edward Norton.


-the entire series is good for all to watch... and gets right into everything being discussed here...

It is good that we are all aware and this awareness should move forward to find the best solutions everyday..

Kind Regards,

J

I am here at the Vega community because what is politically correct is important to me keeps me isolated at time as most just want to stick their heads in the sand and wait for someone else to find the solutions..

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Permalink Reply by John Stewart on December 22, 2009 at 2:37pm

John Stewart said:

Hello Zalman,
The reason I brought up the history of my business is to provide a platform that I understand the global impact of distribution. I agree that the use of plastics have problems with use over a period of time especially when they are exposed to heat that promotes the release of various chemicals at high temperatures... I also know of the islands of plastic that are floating in the pacific.

We use oil and from the bi product of this use brings to us many of the plastics we use today.

I deal with the use of plastics every day, I simply would have to shut down my business not to use it.

Lets look at what Apple is achieving with their IMac compared to other electronic devices devices. What they have achieved with removing toxic chemicals from their glass display is unmatched. So we all should dump the use of our current computers and move to Apple? http://www.apple.com/imac/the-new-imac/

I am just looking at what Charles has said and it is very important that we all look at the bottom line of what is causing largest impact for the actual use of the selected plastic they use. Many consumer goods have some sort of plastic involved and when oil which will happen within our lifespan easily will the big boys be forced to use plastic from Hemp ?

If we have to use plastic it is important not to let it be exposed to dishwasher temps for this is when most chemicals are released. There is an excellent documentary by National geographic about plastics narrated by Edward Norton.


-the entire series is good for all to watch... and gets right into everything being discussed here...

It is good that we are all aware and this awareness should move forward to find the best solutions everyday.. and it's important we all work to do our part to walk closer to the Earth. This is my goal

Kind Regards,

J

I am here at the Vega community because what is politically correct is important to me keeps me isolated at time as most just want to stick their heads in the sand and wait for someone else to find the solutions..

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Permalink Reply by Zalman on December 22, 2009 at 2:56pm

Thanks Stephanie, Glass is very biodegradable, it will dissappear turn back into the sand in a matter of 5-6 years. Whatever plastic you take, #7...10...223..etc, IS PLASTIC=Chemical. Simple fact. Plastics for food is DANGER. No doubt about that.
Before the internet era, basically before 1995, the world was stupid. We followed each other like sheep, bought plastic food containers, bought and used the worst health hazard, dryer stinky smelly sheets,....etc..etc..
Now we are beginning to realize how stupid 99% of the world population was, and how smart were the criminal chemical corporations that brainwashed and polluted our minds.
So, now after we were told that plastic food containers have dangerous chemical bysphenol, it rang a bell at many millions people heads...if there is bysphenol, then must be other similar garbage in plastic.

Plastic+Food=Poison. Period.

Now about glass bottles. How come many other food companies have no problems using glass for 30...40...50...60..70...80...years. they have never even questioned using plastic. I'm curious WHY ?
Like Jam manufacturers. Does anybody has any idea why Schmuker's uses glass for a century and nothing else? And so are ALL jam producers.
How come the very popular peanut butter manufacturer "Nuts To You Nut Butter" uses nothing else but glass ?
What about "Wellesley" apple butter?....list is endless.
They all have no problem with glass.
So, maybe Vega should have talk with few of them, to share what they know about glass packaging.

And final note: Plastic is not only poison in contact with food, but also not Biodegradable.
Glass is both: recyclable and Biodegradable, and for centuries glass didn't contribute any problem to the environment.

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Permalink Reply by John Stewart on December 22, 2009 at 4:06pm

This is probably the best video doc I have seen about Chemicals and Water combined!

http://www.joost.com/0320069/t/Strange-Days-on-Planet-Earth-Trouble...


Cheers and bottoms up -Vega of course not the tap water!

j

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Permalink Reply by Charles Chang on December 22, 2009 at 7:16pm

Thanks for the lively discussion everyone - it is what our community is here for. I think Zalman makes some good points and his concerns are likely shared by others. I also appreciate that John and Stephanie have some credible alternative views as well.

The great thing is we can choose what, when and how we do what we do. Perhaps at some point we might move to glass packaging. The two key things would be 1) if we could source it locally and 2) if we could ship orders in case lots/pallet quantities (like the peanut butter and jam guys) rather than the onsie twosie orders we ususally ship.

Here's a cool webpage quantifies a PET vs glass packaging change that is objectively greener for our planet: http://www.triplepundit.com/2007/03/askpablo-glass-vs-pet-bottles/

For those of you who are die-hard glass fains, our Mums Original hemp oil product is packaged in glass (beautiful italian glass by the way). http://www.mumsoriginal.ca/products.php?id=8

Not sure whether we are going to keep it in glass or move to PET...

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Permalink Reply by Zalman on December 23, 2009 at 6:31am

Charles, appreciate for giving us this link explaining advantages of PET against glass.
But all the pretty numbers there are for BUSINESS purposes only. It's all about HOW MUCH PROFIT Vega can make by reducing the cost of shipping. Right?...RIGHT!
I know you know what exactly plastic is. The composition, the ingredients...all are nasty chemicals that pollute our planet, exterminate sea animals, birds, cause countless diseases to millions and millions of people and of course killed many millions of people over the last 50-60 years.

PET is greener for our planet??? This is a joke ? Plastic floating forever in the ocean, sea or river... ?
Numbers have one and only goal: business.

A simple example. With a hammer you can turn any glass into dust or sand in a few minutes.
Can you do the same with plastic ? NEVER. End of discussion.

If the canadian companies like "Nuts to You Nut Butter" and "Wellesley Apple Butter" and many others can use glass, there is no reason Vega can not use glass. Like I suggested earlier, why don't you get in touch with them and others, talk, ask questions who is their glass supplier, I'm sure they will share the information. You're not competing with them. Although those two companies are in Ontario, could be that their glass suppliers are in BC or AB..
For hemp oil you had no problem using Italian glass ?..;-)

There is another example. A guy from Richmond Hill has formulated a cell therapy supplement which is sold in Ambrosia Health Food store in Thornhill(ON). It's called "REJUVENATE".
He uses very proudly(it's on his website and in the brochure) a tinted glass for the same purpose, to protect the nutrients from light. I think it's manufactured in Toronto, but not sure.
it's: www.biologicaltherapeutics.com
Talk to him, he knows something about glass too. he doesn't reply to email for some reason, maybe too busy.

I can guarantee you Charles, that when you switch to glass, it will only add to your image and sales.

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Permalink Reply by John Stewart on December 23, 2009 at 7:45am

Hello Zalman,

I have read over all your observations and I must agree with you plastic is a naughty, naughty.

It is brutal that we have followed the mass decision and your right that we have been doing what we are told. However, changes are not made over night and as I stated before every other item in my house is plastic. I am not trying to protect Charles however, once again this whole discussion is about "Oil Blend" when the majority of Vega's products are package in plastic. Just like the majority of the health products found at my localized health store right down to the bags and twist ties I load my bulk organic chickpeas into.

As Charles stated he is shipping out one or two orders of "Oil Blend" so in business it would not be viable to buy a year of glass for a slower moving product.

We are a Global Community and we have huge hurdles in front of us and your "RIGHT" we all have to "GET SMART" quick because our population growth is not sustainable and just like it is stated in the DOC Video "CORPORATION" Civilization is already crashing.

I am with you that solutions must be found.

It is the Mass Population that has to gang up on the Governments of the World to make the manufactures to change.

I am only GRATEFUL that Vega has made it affordable for me to become Vegan. We all live in a Rat Race and my Vega Smoothie is my new Fast Food replacing the Drive Thru.

We have to attack these larger corporations that make the Straws and Plastic Lids and the list goes on.

We have to all slow down and forget about our toys and our plush careers that really do nothing for the Evironment.

These are all noble thoughts and ideals however "Humanity" is the "Titanic" and it's going to have to take more than the infantile Vega Community to turn the ship around. The real job is that we teach the world that Vegetarian lifestyle is where we have to go until we find a balance of life and death.

It like the water downed message in the Matrix Movie that so many viewers just did not get. We are at war with humanity's love for their machines and the saviors are trying to save those by eating their veggie soup. Humanity loves the "Cop Out" that "Ignorance is Bliss". I am sure the "Vega Team" does not live with this "Cop Out". However, Humanity is in love with their "Dream World Reality" and I am shunned from many old friends and colleagues because I refuse to live in this "Dream World" any longer.

No body likes the "Activist" trying to shake things up with our "Comfort Level" however the "Activist" is what we all need to be in our "Very Plastic World" right down to our very cozy "Microfiber" clothing found at MEC.

Warmest Regards for 2010,

j

p.s. my wishes to you and your family on my blog..

http://mybanffphotographer.com/blog

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