Bee Pollen?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Niilo John Van Steinburg on June 23, 2009 at 11:34pm

Saw this interesting conversation and had to chime in. I suppose the comment that grabbed my attention the most was this one:
"it's not clear that the production of honey involves any more pain for insects than the production of most vegetables, since the harvesting and transportation of all vegetables involves many 'collateral' insect deaths."

There is a huge difference between incidental deaths and deliberate exploitation. Yes, we should certainly do our utmost to reduce the former, but stepping on an ant while walking down the street doesn't reduce our credibility as vegans. The latter, however, is completely avoidable. Simply do not go out of your way to exploit other creatures.

Another problem with that statement is that the same logic can be applied to justify other unethical acts, such as harming humans or eating animals. "Animals are accidentally killed by humans on a regular basis (e.g., road kill, industrial agriculture), so we may as well eat them." In other words, the inability to be perfect somehow justifies deliberate acts of imperfection. No, it doesn't work that way, fortunately.

Finally, it is always best to err on the side of compassion. I don't know if silk worms feel any pain when they are boiled out of their cocoons. But the consequences of assuming they don't and being wrong are much worse than assuming they do and being wrong. With bees, I feel it's much more clear.

- Niilo

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Frances Worster on June 24, 2009 at 12:48am

I know I seem to be playing the same note over and over, but I heard an interview with Dr. Walter Shantree as part of the (free) Raw Moms (but great for dads and "youngsters" like me) Summit, and he discussed bees. I had mentioned previously that I understood that bees were abandoning their hives. According to Dr. Shantree, there are several theories as to why this is so. One is the belief that beekeepers have been taking far too much honey from the hives and replacing it with sugar water have finally caused bees to leave. However, the bees' action has been sudden, widespread and simultaneous, whereas beekeepers substitution of sugared water is not new, there is doubt as to whether this theory is correct (however, this casts light on the honey business, and the type of "pain" imposed on these bees, since sugared water may be likened to feeding grass-eating livestock grains and ground meat, instead of the nutritious honey they are biologically designed for). Another theory is that the proliferation of digital technologies (especially cell phones and cell towers) has created "noise" that prevents bees from being able to find their hives again. Perhaps we won't know until we can figure out where they're going.
According to Shantree, organic bee "farms" and more wild (therefore less "bred") bee species seem to be unaffected / more resilient. Hearing his comments, I was reminded of course that this is not only about bees. Without pollinators, perennial plants cannot thrive. According to Shantree, while our diets tend to rely more on annuals, perennials are very important in our diet and our ecosystems. Plant an annual, and you are only planning for the next season, plant a perennial, and you are planning for the future.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Frances Worster on June 25, 2009 at 2:32pm

*Sigh* bees seem to be popping up everywhere for me! Here are somethings to consider: 1. beeswax is a HUGE absorber of environmental toxins 2. Non-organic bee keepers often use GMO crops for bees to pollinate 3. non-organic bee keepers spray toxins into the hive:
Daniel Vitalis explains:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rddFt_i6pk

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Darrick on June 25, 2009 at 2:56pm

Thanks for sharing, Frances. I'm finding myself convinced more and more of why bee products really aren't as "insignificant" as I'd once regarded them, and just why I shouldn't be consuming them at all.

Frances Worster said:

*Sigh* bees seem to be popping up everywhere for me!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dave Shishkoff on June 26, 2009 at 10:15am

Hey Joshua - thanks for being a part of the conversation!

I'd ask that you go back and read some of the comments i've already posted. Veganism isn't so much about anti-cruelty as it is about anti-exploitation. This isn't some willy-nilly definition, it's what Donald Watson and others of the Vegan Society wrote to define the term 'vegan' in 1944.

In the case of bees, the underlying issue is that we're exploiting them; utilizing them. They're viewed as little honey-makers for us, not as beings on their own, with their own intents and interests. They make honey for their own purposes, let's let them have it. We certainly don't need it. No human has ever died from a honey deficiency.

You've done some interesting mental acrobatics to try and call honey vegan, but it simply isn't so. Otherwise, chickens are 'incubators' of eggs, and cows are 'incubators' of milk (grass goes in, milk comes out!) Heck, cows and pigs are 'incubators' of meat too! ;)

As far as killing bees, i don't believe that a farm can really collect a marketable amount honey without injuring a single bee...at least this is what i've been told, and a quick Google search didn't show me any farms in the first two pages: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cruelty-free+honey

Even were they able to extract honey without killing or injuring a single bee, it's still taking away something that bees have worked *very* hard to make, and that they make for their own purposes. Imagine if you sewed clothing, and people kept walking in and stealing the clothing you made. Could someone sell that clothing and call it 'cruelty-free'? I think it's cruel to steal something that someone works hard to produce..

Joshua Mikael said:

Darrick--honey is sourced from flower nectar, which is collected by bees from the tips of flowers. They then return this collected nectar to the hive to be curated through their internal incubative system, so it is actually inherently vegan because bees don't make it-- they incubate/develop it (and in a separate "stomach" from their digestive system). The thing that can make it non-vegan is if it comes from a bee farm that is not cruelty-free. But there are cruelty-free bee farms. You will likely only find these farms by searching online for cruelty-free honey or at a farmers market or local co-op. Bees wax, for example, is not vegan, as that is an actual animal byproduct of the bee.

Darrick said:

Thanks for the reply, Dave. I'm very new to the vegan experience myself (still in transition, actually — about 75-80% at this point), thus a lot of info like this is unfamiliar to me. I knew some of my strict vegan friends avoid honey for the reasons you mention, but I wasn't sure if pollen explicitly fell into the realm of the forbidden, that's why I ask.
Now that you've provided that answer, I guess for my own curiosity, is anyone here is familiar with biological findings for excluding bee pollen? I'm thinking along the lines of how Brendan provides examples in Thrive of how non-plant based foods often lead to increased acidity and strain on our bodies' systems, etc. (if not, that's ok too, I'm not too hooked on it anyway).
Perhaps I'm answering my own question by thinking out loud here, haha. Thanks again, and please forgive my naivety on this!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Niilo John Van Steinburg on June 26, 2009 at 5:19pm

Hello Josh,

I hope you don't mind if I point out some errors in your logic. I certainly appreciate it when people do the same for me.

> but nature doesn't seem to be coming down hard on bears
> for taking something bees work hard to make.

Bears are not humans. People often justify barbaric acts by pointing out similar acts in the wild. However, it is an error in logic to do so. Non-human animals are not governed by ethics as we are. We have the intellect and rationality to realize the consequences of our actions. With that comes the responsibility to act ethically. Your pointing out of bears could likewise be used to justify the eating of meat/eggs/dairy, and I'm sure you wouldn't like that. Similarly when you point out examples of "co-existence" in the wild.

> It's not mental acrobatics, it's the allowance for the fact
> that destruction is part of life.

This is another slippery slope logical fallacy. The fact there are bad things going on in the world does not excuse deliberate acts of destruction. There's a war going on in Afghanistan - can I punch someone in the face?

You talk a lot about intent. What is the bees' intent when they make honey? It's so that they have the necessary food required to live. They make it for themselves, not us. For us to arbitrarily step in and take their honey, when they have no say in the matter, is exploitation. How can you justify otherwise?

> If we were to live by the strictest definition of the term
> vegan, then we would avoid walking on grass, so as not to
> trample the tiny bugs that live in the soil, etc...

I have never heard of this definition of veganism, and that is because it doesn't exist. Nowhere does it say that being vegan requires that you never hurt or kill another organism. Veganism is about rejecting exploitation, which is a deliberate act. Deliberating taking a product away from the creature that's made it, without it's consent, is exploitation. There is nothing fuzzy about refusing to deliberately act to exploit another being.

The thing I don't understand about people who cling to honey is: we don't need it. Why sacrifice your ethics for something you simply don't need?

I must admit, this is the first time I've ever seen a person claim that honey is vegan but bee pollen is not.

- Niilo

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Frances Worster on June 28, 2009 at 8:07pm

Josh,

> PS--Per the original question, I'm not sure of the difference between bee pollen and honey, or if they are two different words for the same substance, so I may have gone off about something Darrick wasn't really asking for:)

For the record, going off the original question re: bee pollen is my fault, however, I see no difference between the ethics of "stealing" bee pollen and honey, and I presume some of the same health concerns (as per my previous post) should be considered.

I respectfully disagree with your defense of taking bees' byproducts for the reasons already covered by others, but also because our consumption of bee products is on a significantly larger scale than bears and other animals who consume honey and/or bee pollen (what species do consume pollen?). Like it or not, we exist outside of nature: our technological advances alone result in mass production and consumption the playing field is simply not level, we are no longer subject to "survival of the fittest" and other laws that control the natural world, we live far longer and therefore individually leave a greater footprint on the earth, the list goes on.

Not walking on the grass for fear of squishing a bug refers to a religion / spiritual philosophy called Jainism, which has its own merits that we in the West could learn much from. However, accidentally squishing a bug during an Asana seems more "fair" in a way, since it is one individual (minus GPS systems, fancy rifles, cages, cattle prods, assembly line butcher machines, and so forth) versus one bug in an unconscious encounter facilitated by gravity. When I pick a plant, I take a moment to acknowledge its life force and to thank it, and there is nothing wrong with doing the same with creepy crawlies, roadkill, etc., for it is when we are unaffected by death (who else found the idea of masses of people watching Saddam Hussein executed online as tasteless as I did?) that we lose what it is to be human and we become numb to the nature of .... well, nature.

However, in a general sense I do strongly agree with your point about rules and regulations, I think diet, sexuality, racial identity, etc. is far more nuanced, but to take it back to a comment made at the beginning of this thread, I don't understand why people refer to themselves as Vegan, which has a very specific definition, when they eat honey, or fish, or take cod liver oil, and so forth (and yes, there are so many alternatives to honey, and is bee pollen SO essential to a person's diet? I guess that's a decision for each person).

On a side note, this has got to be the most engaging discussion chain on this site to date!

Frances

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Stelle Sepidoza on June 29, 2009 at 8:51am

All i can say is.. . Intense!! And super interesting :)

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dave Shishkoff on June 29, 2009 at 12:19pm

Hi Josh, i'll repost the definition for veganism:

[T]he word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

Note that "practical" and "possible" are clearly used. So going on about it being impossible be vegan by the "strictest definition" isn't even applicable, as anything more strict than this is re-defining vegan. I'm convinced the people that took the time to give us this definition did so to be very clear and realistic. Yes, we will sometimes step on insects while out walking, etc, and the idea isn't to remove ourselves from the world, but to change how we view and treat it.

And it's not a "divided camp". Honey isn't any more vegan than meat, dairy or eggs. While some may claim to be vegan, and that honey (or anything for that matter) is vegan, that doesn't make it so. I've provided the ultimate authority on the subject: the organization that coined the term. It isn't fair to go about re-defining it. Donald Watson has spoken explicitly on the subject of honey, and it simply isn't vegan. Here is their page outlining bees, and probably would answer some of your questions (including pollen) - http://www.vegansociety.com/animals/exploitation/bees.php

You also ask how we know bees don't want us taking their honey -- again, this is a slippery slope argument at best, and logical fallacy at worst. How do we know cows don't want us taking their milk or flesh? Do you speak bovine? ;)

I think bees do communicate with us when we try to take their honey -- they sting us. They will give up their lives in order to protect their honey (bees die when they sting.) That, to me, is a pretty strong message.

I've skimmed over the website you listed - they mention using beeswax candles, which you yourself say is non-vegan. They also offer bee pollen, in addition to honey. There's no mention of where they get their honey, and i remain skeptical, but besides the point: honey (as well as bee pollen and beeswax) is not vegan.

This restaurant goes through great lengths to include bee products in a significant number of their items. It is simply not a vegan restaurant, and it's unfair for them to call themselves such. Yes, some of the food they serve is indeed vegan, but heck, you could say the same about anywhere. A vegan restaurant reflects the vegan message, and this place fails, unfortunately. I hope people will take the time to encourage them to remove bee products from their menu if they wish to call themselves vegan...otherwise, they shouldn't call themselves vegan.

What i wonder is why someone would work so hard to try and call something vegan that obviously isn't? It's so strange to me...!!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Frances Worster on June 29, 2009 at 11:56pm

Josh,
I'm going to pick on you here because you've made this comment quite a bit about honey (so I went to look it up):

>[milk is] generated through a mammal's internal biological processes [....] honey is sourced from plant nectar and bees carry it to their hive.

bee pollen is collected in traps outside of the hive entrance, where bees rub their collected pollen into those traps as they squeeze through to carry their pollen inside. Honey is created when:

"the honeybees return to the hive and pass the nectar onto other worker bees. These bees suck the nectar from the honeybee's stomach through their mouths. These "house bees" "chew" the nectar for about half an hour. During this time, enzymes are breaking the complex sugars in the nectar into simple sugars so that it is both more digestible for the bees and less likely to be attacked by bacteria while it is stored within the hive. The bees then spread the nectar throughout the honeycombs where water evaporates from it, making it a thicker syrup. The bees make the nectar dry even faster by fanning it with their wings. Once the honey is gooey enough, the bees seal off the cell of the honeycomb with a plug of wax. The honey is stored until it is eaten. In one year, a colony of bees eats between 120 and 200 pounds of honey"
from: http://www.fordshoneyfarm.com/honeymade.html

More than one bee involved, chewing, digestion (with enzymes), evaporation, thickening and "drying" by the bees, stored / "bottled" in wax. I argue that those bees are putting a lot of effort into making that honey. In a sense, the milk (or flesh) is sourced from grass in that the feed provides the energy for those metabolic processes. How is that really different to converting flower pollen into a food source for bees?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Frances Worster on June 30, 2009 at 1:52pm

Oh Darrick, Darrick,
Had you any idea what you were starting with such an innocent question? :)

Josh,
I certainly didn't read your comments as anything more than a spirited debate, and a healthy dose of "devil's advocatism", when it's so easy for vegans to get militant and "judgey" (not here, as much as in a lot of other online communities, or in day-today life, and I admit my own guilt in this). Obviously, there are a lot of different opinions about animal products and the Vega diet on this site, as other current threads document the use of whey powder, soy, etc. After all, this isn't really a vegan / vegetarian site, so all kinds of attitudes towards nutrition are represented and have every right to speak up (we're not all extreme, vegan, pro-athletes).
I hope to see more discussions like this one in the future, we can only compete for craziest green smoothie or best bench press for so long. Hope we can all love each other once the footnotes and intellectual dust settle...
Thanks for representing another approach, or else I might have become nauseous from too much agreement

(if I wanted your opinion, I'd tell you your opinion !!!) :)

re: bee pollen (isn't this where we started?),

" 'Bee pollen' is actually pollen from flowers that is collected from bees as they enter the hive or is harvested by other means. Pollen granules stick to the bees' legs and other body parts as they help themselves to nectar (the precursor of honey) inside the flowers."
(from: http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/bee.html)
(This article discounts some of the health claims made about bee pollen, an interesting read)

But why is it then called "bee" pollen?

"Bee bread or bee pollen-sam[1] is the main source of food for most honey bees and their larvae, consisting of honey and pollens which are gathered by the worker bees."
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bee_pollen

Plus, I found this comment:
"All pollen traps are designed not to take more bee pollen than necessary. Afterall, how ridiculous would that be if a beekeeper took all the nutrients from his own bees? "
from: http://www.pacificcrestapiaries.com/id44.html
(includes pictures and step-by-step explanation of how pollen is collected)
-Boy that raises some interesting questions. Is there unused pollen if the bees were able to enter the Hive without passing through a trap? The same site claims that 1/3 of the pollen is removed from each bee. It will take a greater mind than mine to decide if this is "reasonable"..

I guess then, we could liken them to Mexican berry pickers, who get mugged every time they head home with what few groceries they can afford and could carry home.

I couldn't resist:
" Bee pollen is said to consist of 40% plant carbohydrate, 5% plant fat, and 5% plant protein--the remaining 50% is fungus, bacteria, insect body parts and hairs, mites, and bee fecal material [1] [....]
Bee pollen came to the attention of sports medicine researchers after the 1972 Finnish marathon runners claimed that it improved their performance. Subsequent testing failed to confirm their beliefs.

Bee pollen is sold as a herbal remedy (pollen is a plant part which classifies it as an herbal). Because of poorly controlled manufacturing practices of herbal remedy makers, bee pollen capsules may be adulterated with many other substances."
from: http://www.ncahf.org/articles/a-b/beepollen.html

I'm thinking Josh, you will probably argue then that bee pollen is not "un-vegan" simply because they would have eaten it had it not been removed from their legs prior to entry into the hive...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Darrick on July 2, 2009 at 9:09am

Frances Worster said:

Oh Darrick, Darrick,
Had you any idea what you were starting with such an innocent question? :)

Haha, I'm kinda glad I asked — between the detailed info about bee pollen, and the practical and philosophical sides of veganism, I've really learned a lot, and everyone's input definitely cleared up some of the things that seemed less straightforward to a vegan noob, like myself.

All in all, I've certainly got no interest in consuming bee products any more (bee pollen, wax, or honey). Besides, who needs honey when there's agave nectar out there? yum... :)

Joshua Mikael said:

I want to clarify something for you all, who so diligently defended veganism/honey against my posts. I've never actually disagreed with you along the way, from my first post until now. I took the devil's advocate stance from the start because I wanted to see what authentic reactions people would have and what it would move them to say in defense of honey falling outside of veganism; the views I put forward were based off of what I've heard from folks who feel differently than those in this thread and things I thought of along the way.

You're a sneaky one there, Joshua! haha

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• Next ›
• Page